OK, I gotta ask, because I've read and reread these posts, and I'm totally mystified.If I say "I like my bike and here's why", or if anyone else says the same thing, how does that translate into a "veiled or subtle put down or backhanded complement of other brands"?I don't see anything here in any of these posts that justifies that kind of a conclusion.If I didn't own my particular bike there are plenty of other choices. Top several would be a Connie, an FJR, an ST 13, and possibly a gold wing, or god help me, a Victory Vegas or an Indian Chief. I've ridden Japanese bikes all over the place and for plenty of miles--I rode 14000 miles on a Goldwing nonstop in 6 weeks. I learned how to ride on a yamaha. I've ridden Hodakas, Bultacos, fake Italian Indian Enduros, and owned Kawasakis, Yamahas, Suzukis and Hondas, and even Briggs and Stratton powered minibikes.  And for that matter, I'll even out myself before god and everyone: I've ridden a vespa scooter, and a Jawa moped, and enjoyed it thoroughly in both cases. There, I said it! Now if all of these experiences combined with my owning a single BMW and liking it makes me "an effete BMW snob", I'm wondering how the math adds up to lead to that conclusion--because quite frankly, I don't think it does.Seriously, if all I do is say I like something (motorcycle car, tv vacation place, type of cuisine, whatever), and someone chooses to read into that all kinds of things that were not intended or implied, how does that translate into snobbery or implied put downs of other brands? In my frank view, that's one hell of a stretch at best.Yeah, I own a BMW, and yeah I like it a lot. But anyone who's ever watched me walk through a parking lot full of many different (hint: NON BMW) bike brands and drool over them, would be seriously reaching to accuse me of bike brand snobbery. In fact I'd have to say they might be bordering on delusional, or need to adjust their meds.Really, methinks someone here protesteth way too much(!)...

Josh, don't let the BMW talk get under your skin.  We all buy the bike that we feel is right one way or another.  It just happens that BMWs are over-represented here; they are too tall and too heavy, just like their owners (oops, did I say that?!).  I ride a Ducati, which everyone knows is a finicky, high-maintenance, overpriced poser of a bike.  isurfne, congrats on the new bike!

Ian if memory serves its a monster though, so you get a pass.;-) 

Joel, congratulations on your new acquisition!  May you enjoy it for many miles to come!  I was in a bit of a quandary in the K vs. R space before I got my most recent bike. I seriously considered a R1200ST (the odd looking one with the 'cylops' headlight). But the power of the K ultimately won out. I've been affected (some might say permanently damaged, LOL) by my two stroke street bike background, which is a big part of that. I continue to maintain a deep respect for the R bikes though, and may yet own one some day.Just out of curiosity, was the K a first year '98 model?

I’ll start on the meds when someone addresses the salient points I have mentioned, most notably this “superior engineering” that BMW supposedly provides or possesses.  It’s not enough to say “well I used to own Japanese bikes so I’m off the hook here”.  We all know that converts make the vehement proselytizers. 
First let me say that there is no such thing as “pure engineering” for engineering sake.  Just like pure capitalism, it doesn’t exist.  When I was getting my engineering degree one of the REQUIRED classes was Engineering Economics.  Why?  Because EVERYTHING has a cost component.  BMW (or any other manufacturer for that matter) does not engineer a thing without one specific idea in mind:  How to best separate you from your money.  They do not put some whiz bang suspension bit on it because they think it’s cool or some crazy electrical bit to prove they can do it.  It’s ALL designed to feed the marketing machine.  You pay more for it.  Probably the most cost competitive BMW motorcycle ever is the S1000RR.  Why is it cost competitive with the Hondas, Yamahas, Etc?  Because they copied the Hondas, Yamahas, etc.  And I commend them for it.
Now, am I looking down on you for spending more than you had to in order to obtain a certain capability?  Absolutely not.  Case in point, I just spent more on a bike than I had to.  I could have bought a Kawasaki Ninja 1000 and saved literally thousands of dollars.  Does my bike “do” anything better than Rob’s?  No.  Does it have better engineering?  Certainly not.  So why did I do it?  Because I LIKED IT!  It’s all about marketing to specific segments of the population.  Do you think for a minute that Honda can’t do exactly what BMW does?  Of course they can and they do…it’s called the Gold Wing.  It is over engineered and VERY EXPENSIVE and is geared to a much higher economic segment of the population.  It just so happens that BMW markets most of their products to that segment.  It’s not superior engineering but marketing and a conscious decision that puts them in this segment.
Let’s talk about what makes a bike (or any product) magical or special.  YOU DO!  It is parts put together by people.  It has no soul.  If you think your bike has soul, you have fallen for the marketing hype hook, line, and sinker.  Here’s an example:  BMW makes the “Ultimate Driving Machine”.  Really?  REALLY?  What is the ultimate driving machine?  I’ll tell you what it is, it’s the driving machine that works for YOU and YOU ONLY.  If you’ve got six kids I guarantee the ultimate driving machine does not come from BMW.  If you don’t have a lot of money to spend I guarantee it doesn’t come from BMW.  The Ultimate Driving Machine slogan is just that, it doesn’t exist, it’s a marketing campaign turned into a cult following.  There is nothing magical or special about any of these bikes we buy.  WE make them magical and special.  WE give them a soul.
If you want to believe that you’ve got “Superior Engineering” to help you sleep at night or make you feel better for spending more money, I suppose that’s your prerogative.  I just wish people would be honest and say I liked it and so that’s what I bought.  Instead we have this mythical superiority concept that is absolute nonsense.  As for Germany (or any other country for that matter) having some elevated stance with respect to engineering or critical thinking, I’ve yet to see a compelling argument for that either.  In certain market segments, a country may hold a small advantage but I would say even that has dwindled in recent years.  The German car mythology is outdated at best.  The quality and engineering of Korean cars (something I thought would never happen by the way) now rivals that of the best from Europe.  Again, to justify spending more you can certainly believe something from the black forest has a soul.  People making stuff in the black forest certainly hope you do.

Damn this formatting!

jpcfjr In car circles this is actually not true: "The quality and engineering of Korean cars (something I thought would never happen by the way) now rivals that of the best from Europe. " They actually rival, and in many cases surpass, the best from Japan. The most reliable and carefully engineered (from a manufacturing standpoint) cars don't come from Europe.

If you want to read an interesting article which talks about this very thing, see the June issue discussion with the head of REV'IT where he talks about having to INCREASE the actual quality of materials and construction of the gear for American riders, versus the focus on fashion and design for European customers. Fascinating and incredibly honest.

Gentlemen, 
Thank you all for the congratulations on the new bike. Its a joy to ride and im looking forward to many many miles on it.


While BMW, triump or ( insert your fav. company here) is a discussion for another day, the reason i have this opportunity to even be a part of this discussion is due to Yermo and his affinity for a motorcycle that burns oil and weighs as much as a tank is the K100RS. i don't think id have learned what i did, come this far in my riding or become friends with you guys if my father and i had come in on another bike. Surely we would have chatted but it was this band or brothers on inferior  yet truly loved machines that got us into this group. For that i am thankful. We all have different stories of how we met the Road Scholar that is Yermo, but for me, its was because of BMW.

However 
having started this war i would also like to be the one to end it. We cannot continue this discussion without at least one bottle of scotch and a campfire. It we are missing those it will spiral out of control to no end. At least with the scotch and campfire one is likely to run its course before we all kill 

each other
. 




I hope we can quit squabbling and start riding. thanks guys, looking forward to meeting up with you lot again some day. 


 

I read that article with the Revit guy.  Very interesting.
One other point on engineering that I think I left out as I thought about this over lunch.  Good or superior engineering is on a relative scale.  And it is not fair to compare engineering across purposes and market economic segments perhaps.  You engineer FOR a particular cost point or market segment.  Thus the engineering can only be compared between items in the same price range.  And even then it's difficult.  For example, a $10,000 bike may have been designed for high gas mileage while another is designed to go fast.  Can you really compare the two?  Maybe not.  Maybe only the individual buyer has the right to do that.  Thus Duncan's statement of "the best bike for me" is the BEST answer to why he bought what he did.

isurfne LOL. Also, is your username because you surf in New England?? I grew up in New England and surfed the New Hampshire and Maine coasts growing up (mostly in winter for bigger swells). As a young guy I also had the chance to surf Big Sur after coming from NE and it was a real eye opener!!!!

jpcfjr Making a new thread just for us engineering lunatics

Damn, after I've run out of stuff to say you start a new thread?

Yes rob, it is because i surf in new england. I started 4 ish years ago and after a year i went to Australia,  it was eye opening, but amazing. Winter swells are where its at. and Hurricanes too. If you ever make it up this way i'll see if i can borrow a board for you and we can can catch a few waves.

Rob on a surf board.  I think I would pay cash money to see that.

jpcfjr I still have a spectrum short board around here somewhere. In fact, it is MY version of the blue  "K"
 It still has a big bash in its nose from hitting the rocks at North Hampton in the winter of 1986. In 1989 when I was at DLI in Monterrey we went up to Half Moon Bay and paddled out to watch the locals run Mavericks. INSANE... I - N - S - A - N - E

Ok, back on my (imaginary) meds.  First let me say that I didn't intend to tick anyone off here, but I suspect that is the case.  I sometimes forget to use the smiley face in a liberal fashion.  My sincerest apologies for 1.  hijacking Joel's thread, and 2.  inferring that anybody is offending me - because that is not allowed to happen without my permission.  It is entirely possible that most of what I was annoyed by was in my head.
Sorry.  I can't say it will never happen again but I'll do my best.

Thanks for saying that.